Kriss Duggan – Full Length Video Interview and Transcript

JASON: Today on Game Changer we’re speaking to Kris Duggan. Kris is the co-founder of Badgeville, which is the fastest growing B-to-B social company in the world. They’re a global leader in gamification, a trend which is one of the most important trends to watch out for in the world. They’ve raised $40 million in the two years they’ve been operating. They’re growing exceptionally quickly. This is a great interview, some great insides. Enjoy.
KRIS: Being at Badgeville, we’re considered the leader in gamification, and so. What is gamification? Gamification is about using various techniques that you see in gaming experiences and even social experiences, and applying those to non-gaming activities, and so. That could be things like rewarding people for behavior, signaling and suggesting things that they should do next, comparing their performance relative to others including their peers, and a whole variety of techniques. And so we provide a platform that let’s anybody create these kinds of experiences on top of their existing—website, mobile application, enterprise software, etc. So, really at the core, it’s about how do we drive more engagement, more behavior, and really start to kind of influence and motivate an audience using all these modern techniques and applying them to any experience that’s digital.
JASON: Do you have any case studies that you can talk us through or just explain kind of in a practical sense how your brand or company has benefited?
KRIS: Yeah, for sure. So, you know and just as kind of a quick snapshot of the company, today we have—we’ve been around for about two years. We’ve raised about $40 million in capital. We’ve had about 80 people in the company, and we have about 200 customers that are using our solutions in lots of different ways. Sometimes they’re using it for really kind of gamy types of experiences, rewards, virtual rewards, etc. And we can talk about several case studies that they’re very successful. One that comes to mind is Samsung. What they’re doing with—in Samsung USA, is very compeling but—and then, we have other customers that are using our product to maybe not necessarily—they won’t even call it gamification, they would say, “We want to start to kind of incentify users for creating really great quality content and engaging in a community, and we wanna allow people to start to build reputation and expertise, and so—you know, they are using our solution for this concept of reputation mechanics, and so—and by the way, you can use this internally on your employees. You can use this externally with customers and partners and developers. So we really see literally dozens and dozens and dozens of different types of applications of the technology in a daily basis. So as one example, you’ve got Samsung.com. You’ll see right in their home page that says Samsung Nation. Samsung Nation is a way that Samsung rewards people for engaging more deeply on the site. Their rewards are predominantly virtual. And so—it’s kind of a guided tour. As you explore new products, as you review products, as you share products with friends on Samsung.com, the users get rewarded with these achievements, and kind of virtual goods that get them very excited. And I can’t share specific details, but I can tell you that when they add—before and after adding Badgeville to kind of motivate and influence their users’ behavior, they saw very significant increases in the key desired behavior that they were trying to drive. For example product reviews went up, you know, not just like 10 or 15% but 100s of percent increase in frequency of daily product reviews. So we see that consistently time and time again is that—I think it’s common sense. If you measure people’s behavior, if you start to guide them into what is important for you, and if you’re even willing to do things like reward them, even when those rewards are purely virtual, you know, people are going to get excited about it, you know, and work that little extra harder, you know, engage more deeply with your community, specially when there’s even some great social implications from that which are things like being recognized as an expert or a thought leader, or you know a real true fan of your product, your brand, or maybe a top performer in the company, you know those things really top into human emotion and get people really excited. We provide the technology the enables a lot of that.
JASON: So if somebody is watching us now and they have a big brand or a big company and they want to get Badgeville involved on their sites or within their communities, do they just go to the website and sign up or what are the cost involves?
KRIS: and, so—you know, so—we provide our solution as a service, a hosted service. It’s really a development platform. So, we’ll work with you to integrate our solution into whatever your experience is. Sometimes it might be website, sometimes it might be mobile application, sometimes it might even be an enterprise application. You know, we work even with products that are SharePoint, and Salesforce.com and Yammer, and all these things that you see inside enterprises to add those same kinds of experiences inside the company to really inspire and motivate employee engagement, and so we’ll look at what you use case is. Typically it starts in a couple thousand dollars per month for access to the service, but then you might find that you might need access to our expertise in resources, so we’ll help you along with that piece as well, we’ve got here quite a few folks that come from social gaming background. They also come from traditional gaming, loyalty, social. So we have a lot of kind of expertise. Now that we have done these 200 appointments can really share with any customer or anybody that’s thinking about how to use some of this stuff.
JASON: All right. The rate of your growth is incredible and the latest stats that I have, which is quite hard to research actual coincides because every time that I find a new post your site just kept on growing which is fantastic, but obviously your company is evolving so quickly as well. Is what you’re offering now very so much what your vision was originally or has it evolved a lot, or are you still kind of in the process of getting into your original vision?
KRIS: So, I would actually say our vision is even bigger than what we’re talking about today.
JASON: Yeah
KRIS: So but I do think it’s also kind of grown overtime. So our vision is to free the world from boring software.
JASON: Yeah.
KRIS: That’s our vision. And we think there’s boring software everywhere, on the web, inside companies, and you know, consider this, in the last –I did a research on this recently—in the last five years there’s been about a trillion dollars worth of software that’s been sold globally, a trillion dollars, and if you look at the adoption rates, A forestry did a study on the software adoption in the last five years, and it’s less than 50%. So we’re talking about a 500 billion dollar asset. Five hundred billion dollars just sitting there completely unutilized. And so, our vision is how do we help companies recoup the value that they invested in those technologies by using modern techniques. And you know, you asked what was the idea for the company. You know, the idea was, we know that getting people to adopt software is very hard, and we know that techniques that, and we know techniques that social gaming companies use like Zinga, Playdo and others had drive massive engagement. So we don’t know exactly how we all take shape but the intersection of those two things will create a lot of value. And so now, two years later, you know, now we have 80 people in the company, we’ve spent a lot of time and effort working with lots of types of enterprise customers, big companies Barnes & Noble, and Dell, EMC, and Computers Associates and all these big companies, and dozens and dozens of smaller companies, mid-size companies, internal, external, web, mobile, enterprise, you know, and we’ve seen time and time again that these techniques are highly effective, and, you know, they’re relatively easy to implement with the right kind of solution, and, you know, so it’s a—you know—it’s a good time to be in this business
JASON: and—I mean. There’s so much happening, how are ahead are you planning or is it you’re just trying to get through this initial phase? Do you plan as a very much focus day to day and another jobs you do plan? What is the kind or mindset or focus within the company and within your role?
KRIS: I do think we have to plan further ahead than you might expect, and it’s because—I think—you know, obviously a lot of our growth is obviously purely driven by the market demand and market interest and so it’s nice—you know, it’s nice to think that we’re so in a great time in the market and that the reality is we were very fortunate with our timing, we launched at Tech Crunch in 2010, and you know, over the last two years, and I think over the next several years we’ll expect to see very significant demand in this area, and you know, how it’s implemented, how and all the details I think are going to shirt over time, but this concept, the interception of psychology with technology is a kind of, you know, the cats out of the bag, so to speak., and so that’s going to continue and kind of be important, and you know, the way I think about it is, you know, we’re going to see more than 100% year over year growth for the next several years, and, so we have to kind of plan ahead with our infrastructure, our resources, our people, our hiring, how we organize our teams, you know, and so that kind of creates a little bit maybe focus for us on how think on how to scale the company.
JASON: Okay. So you’re obviously gonna work really hard catching up with the demand within the market because that’s huge, and how much focus is spent on innovation because the demand is almost very far behind in it to innovate, if you understand what I am saying because a lot of this is evolving in psychology how far down at the rabbit hall, if you can say that, do you guys, would you go down in terms of—
KRIS: We—I would say, you know—we in fact are at the intermediate point, we just went through an 18-month planning exercising, so I can only tell you our head count, our expected revenue–
JASON: Okay
KRIS: –Our key investments, our technology investments, our product innovations, you know—not just for the next quarter or two but for the next six quarters.
JASON: All right. Can you share some of that with us? I would be quite interested to know the projects you’ve got.
KRIS: So I mean, we’re at 8– at an organizational basis, you know, we are at 80 people today, we—we will be adding more than one person a week. Kind of imperpetuity, I think, so—That gets us to about 150 to 200 people next year.
JASON: Okay. And how much of your focus is outside of the States in terms of action brands and companies that you work with. What are your growth markets?
KRIS: Yeah, I mean. North America is our focus, and you know, there’s a lot of business to have here. You know, we also see lots of inbound interest coming from all over the world, and as a result, actually today we have a customers in about 20 countries, and so—we service those from the States today, but in Q2 last quarter we actually opened our—a UK office, so we have now head count in London, and so we’re gonna, you know, kind of go after Europe through a UK presence, you know, I imagine that we’ll be investing in Asia Pacific, you know, in the next 12 months or so. But at the same time, most of our resourcing kind of market focus is here in the States.
JASON: A lot of tech amplies talk not too deep into this industry, but there’s about an exit strategy. What is your strategy are you voting to exit it or are you voting to keep it going?
KRIS: You know, you don’t raise 40 million dollars, you know, to kind of architect a quick exit, and so, my feeling on this is, I think, I’m convinced that there’s a 500 billion dollar asset waiting to be kind of corrected and fixed globally and, you know, this isn’t just about, you know, I know you saw the Yammer, the Yammer exit at 1.2 billion dollar exit, that’s a huge exit, you know they were required by Microsoft, you know, and obviously revenues from there might been said probably significant lower than what we’re doing, our feeling is, you know, if we can help customer recover, you know, 10% of the value that a 500 billion dollar asset, that’s 50 billion dollars in revenue. If 1% is 5 billion dollars revenue not company value, revenue, so, you know, we think this is a huge market, lots of potential, and I do think it’s going to sustain, you know one, if not several independent software companies that are publicly traded, large, very large companies, just maybe similar to what you saw in the collaboration phase with Jave Public (15:10), Lithium is in huge amounts of money, Yammer getting required by Microsoft, I think you’ll see that kind of – those types of opportunities in the gamification category.
JASON: Do you think gamification is one of the most important trends happening right now, and how do you see it evolving?
KRIS: yes. I think it’s definitely a timely thing. At its core, people are—whether we apply this to customer phasing or employ phasing, it’s solving the same problem which is customers, you know, are becoming less loyal, and there’s more competition for their attention. Employees, you know aren’t engaged, and so, you know that leads to leads to bad, poor productivity, and so, these techniques when applied correctly are effective at solving those problems. So, you know, I think it’s definitely timely, I think it depends on which lense you look at this through. You could say gamification is kind of a piece of the social strategy, it’s kind of one pillar in the social, and so, actually we’ve been even taking a broader view which is gamification is actually a pillar of a broader concept that we refer to as behavior management or behavior life-cycle management which is really part of this intersection of psychology with technology and we’ll—we’ll start to see many other examples of how that concept is emerging in lots of different types of technologies experiences. So, you know, social—and, you know, those concepts are really driving gamification, but I think, but I think people are realizing that there’s something bigger out there than just gamification.
JASON: Kris, can you talk about how you and your business partner came aobut, came up with the idea of Badgeville. You obviously saw that there’s potential there, but how you got to start in the company?
KRIS: Yeah, I mean, In a—I was working in a collaboration software company, and adoption is really hard, getting people to use the product. You could in fact—you could get an executive sponsor interested in the concept of collaboration, but when they try to roll it out to their team, it’s really hard to get people to use it, and in fact, so I talked about it earlier that 50% of—less than 50% software is utilized in the last five years. Forester actually says that in social software the adoption rate is 12%, 12% of the software is actually adopted. So I was coming from that experience, my first few friends were working at Zinga saying, “You wouldn’t believe what we can get users to do using some of these approaches.” And you know, I knew there was something, the intersections of those two things was, you know, valuable. How we’re going to do? I don’t know, you know, what we’re going to do exactly?, I didn’t know. Actually, the summer—the summer before we launch the company, we launched it in September, 2010 at TechCrunch, the summer before, you know, I’d probable talked to 100 companies asking them, “Is this what, you know, you think that it should be?” you know, “is this the way it should be?” We did lost of research, engaged lots of companies. In fact by the time we launched in TechCruch we already brought on about 10 customers that wanted to—they were so excited about it, they wanted to start, you know experimenting, you know, they service the basis of kind of the whole company.
JASON: And what were the most surprising challenges or the biggest things that you’ve had to struggle and overcome as an entrepreneur and a business owner and as a starter.
KRIS: So, you know, I mean, in a hind sight, it looks everything so easy, and the growth is there and all these things, but, I mean, so the reality is, you know, there wasn’t a lot of interest in funding the company. You know, I had actually, you know, kind of worked with a few investors, kind of get them excited, but nobody is excited. They weren’t sure, “Is this gonna work,” or “Is this, you know, Oh, I see it could work here, but it’s not going to work here,” or “It’s just for websites,” or “It’s just for consumer experiences.” And, you know, in fact we didn’t get much investment interest until after TechCrunch, when after the day that we launched, we started getting about 80 to a 100 leads a day of companies calling us saying, “This is exactly what we want.” And we were so overloaded with like inbound leads that I actually had a few friends, we brought them on to the company because we couldn’t deal with, the phone was ringing so much, and we ended up raising our series A financing in December of 2010, you know, a couple months after launching, but, you know, like that, those early days are definitely not obvious to people, we were not even sure exactly how this all was going to play out, you know, it wasn’t like—we didn’t feel like we were launching this brand new company to the world, we just felt like, “I just really hope we make it through the demo on stage and we’ll see what happens after that. “
JASON: Did you ever doubt yourself and think, “We’re crazy, let’s turn around.”
KRIS: Yeah, I in fact, I remember in—like June or July, right before—a couple of months before launching, I remember thinking of myself, you know, “I made a terrible mistake,” and, because had actually invested in very small amount of CD capital to kind of help me, to kind of be able to take that time off to start the company, and so I just remember thinking like, this is maybe June or July, I just have to figure out a way to get recover some of that investment so that I just can return it all back to him and just kind of wrap the whole thing up, but you know, we kept pushing through, you know, I can appreciate when it’s like if you’re times feel really bleak or you’re not seeing the progress or the success, you know, and it make takes a little bit kind of crazy, they kind of keep pushing through, and you know, you kind of have to stick to your convictions because I know exactly the feeling of—felling, you know, like—we’ve made a terrible mistake, and then, you know, a couple of months later, it looks like, you know, it’s the best decision you could have done.
JASON: How does it feel now? Is there a great sense of satisfaction and—obviously there’s a great excitement about the future but, I mean, going through that process and doing what you’ve done, what does that feel?
KRIS: It’s exciting to have, you know, It’s exciting to have, you know, I feel like we’ve got such a great team and we’ve got a huge market potential in front of us, and you know we’ve got adequate and ample resources like our front man, and customers and revenue, and you know that’s absolutely satisfying, and on the other side, I just realized we have that much more work to do. And so, we feel like we’re the clear leader in our category, we feel like we’re definitely the right team, we’re timing the right market and the right resources, so actually there is more pressure because we’ve got the potential to create a very successful company. If we don’t do that, I don’t think it’s anybody else’s fault. It’s our fault.
JASON: All right
KRIS: And so, it’s not easy to like keep doubling the head count and growing, you know, we’re moving to our fifth office pretty soon here because we run out of space in every other office, you know, but kind of culture, building the culture, maintaining the culture, focusing on customers success, focusing on team work, you know, these—those kind of things. They take a lot of effort as you scale the company. So I guess, you know, we definitely take time to acknowledge our successes but we also are focused on continuing to execute well.
JASON: You spoke about team manage, so and the importance of having a good team, and the culture within the company. Do have any advice based on your experience on how you’ve done it that you could share with us?
KRIS: Yes, so. You know, I think one of the best things that we ever did was, this is probably more than a year ago, was we took the time to write down our mission and write down our culture and kind of what we want our culture to be, and what our values are. And we came up with five values, and an interesting way, we actually just—by the way we ran that by—it wasn’t just Kris coming down with slides and showing everybody, it was—we worked together to kind of define that, the early people in the company, maybe when we were like 20 people, and we recently—and we talked about those values a lot to make sure we performed according to those values, and we recently had a survey of the employees, and asked, you know, “how well does the company—are these the right values? How well does the company perform against actually delivering on these values?” And you know, we scored really high on these are the right values, and in some of our values we scored really high, that we were doing a great job, and in others we recognized the opportunities for improvement, so we actually kind of invested more in these areas. So I think that actually taking the time and write it down and enforce that conversation has, I think, served as well as we scale the team so that we even know like the kind of things we should we look for when we interview a new person, how they’re gonna fit with our culture, like, you know, if the employee says—or candidate says, you know, “what’s your culture like?” we actually can say, “well, let me tell you what we value.” I think that’s how we keep part of it.
JASON: What are those five values? Can you tell us?
KRIS: Yes, so, working as a team, delivering marquee customer success, being ambitious, investing in personal growth and development, and having fun.
JASON: And how do you have fun? Because when you’re working so much and you’ve got such an ambitious thought of line, how you get that sense of fun? Or bright life of fun?
JASON: So there are so many things we can do. So like, you know, we have an annual white-water rafting trip. So we actually just came back from that recently. So, you know, the whole company goes on white-water rafting trip. We try to do a weekly, monthly and quarterly events. And so, there’s going to be things like, just blowing off some steam weapon, going to a baseball game, having a barbecue, or having a Christmas party, or, you know, we do quarterly T-shirts, just for the team.
JASON: T-shirts?
KRIS: T-shirts. But they are only internal. They’re not for external use. So we bring—we bring in lunch three times a week. We encourage people to rotate through various offices in the company. So we have a New York office and a UK office, and so if you work here, we would encourage you go to and spend a week in one of those offices. You know on the personal development side, if people want to go to any kind of training or conference, or offsite, you know, workshop, and if they work for the company now, we’ll pay for it. So, part of the reason, I think, obviously people wanna be fairly compensated in a job, but they also wanna, kind of, really be, you know, I think they wanna be pushed out of their comfort zone. They wanna use that as an opportunity for growth and development, and they wanna learn as much as possible, and so we try to create an environment here where we can deliver on that. Part of that is investing in outside, you know kind of programs, mentors, coaches, you know, classes, and conferences, and letting people—and encouraging people to actually go to those things.
JASON: Okay. Cool. I’m interested in more you personally because one question that I ask people is What is your day, and average day look like? The reason why I ask that is looking really specifically what are the positive—the daily behaviors or habits that they have that leads to success. Can you talk us through, in kind of an average day for you but focus on the things that you do that you think help you succeed and some kind of keep you having the edge so to speak?
KRIS: Yeah, I think it’s, and a lot of it is, you know, kind of focusing on the fundamentals. The fundamentals of management, are things like allocating time to planning, staffing which is, you know, hiring and developing our team, organizing our resources, thinking about “are we really maximizing how we our team is organized, and you know, that could be location, function, etc. Things like communicating. When you spend a lot—when you have 80 people in the company and keep on adding one—one person per week, like “how are we communicating as a company?” internally and externally, and keeping everybody on the same page and keeping people on the line of the very simple and easy to understand kind of mission. And then also, you know, like I would say the metrics, you know, we’re very metrics driven. So I can tell you the company metrics. I can tell you the—every department’s metrics, and we have quarterly goals and controls, and all of the quarterly departmental ones roll up to the company goals and controls, and—[pause in the video(30:21)] –there’s a lot of alignment and intra-lock across the company because we are very metrics and accountability driven. So how does kind of—you kind of take those things out, you know, leadership, communication, staffing, planning, organizing and metrics, you know, on a day to day basis, I would say, a lot of it is, kind of making sure that we’re executing across those dimensions well, you know, and I do one-on-one’s with everybody on my team every week. I stick to those one-on-one’s, and I think that people are really busy and they kind of cancel and reschedule, and but I stick to those, and, you know, and then the rest of the time besides management, you know, it’s customer, you know, working with customers, working with our teams to deliver customer success, a lot of interviewing, and you know, part of it, I guess, is staying out of the way, like let the people do their jobs and not to get kind of too involved.
JASON: What is the one thing that you think separates you from other people, that you are really exceptionally good at, that you bring to the table?
KRIS: I would say, I’m really organized. So, you know, I don’t feel like my e-mail controls me. I control my e-mail. I’m really responsive. You know, and I don’t miss meetings, I’m on time. You know, there’s just basic things like meeting encounter management, you know, the meeting should start and finish on time. And I think we have so, and that kind of trickles down the company, and people—that’s kind of our culture. It’s, you know, it’s this concept of, kind of being proactive, organized and so forth and, and you know, that’s kind of one of our secret weapons.
JASON: Kris, who has influenced the way that you do business, in the way that you bought your company, in your leadership style, are there people that you have taken influence from as you work with previously or books that you’ve read or anything like that? Can you share some of your resources of inspiration with us?
KRIS: I would say the best experience that I’ve had was when I worked at WebEx. I worked at WebEx for four years, and Webex grew from a couple hundred people when I joined to a couple thousand people when I left, and I was in sales management at WebEx, and WebEx did a lot of personal development, and they invested in, you know, courses, and training, and offsite kinds of things, and so—and they’re very focused on planning and execution and, I think that a lot of the tenants that we carry here, you know, the management team at WebEx, even the whole kind of culture that they have, we—there’s a lot of things that we can borrow from them, so on the personal side, you know, one of my mentors is actually my brother-in-law, and you know, he has a saying which is, you know, you’re either investing in yourself or your cashing out on yourself. And so you kind of decide what you wanna do right now, you wanna invest in yourself or do you want to cash out, and so, I think a lot of founders do some mentoring around here. I see a lot of founders and entrepreneurs, they’re quick to start the companies, and maybe they don’t have a lot of experience, and I think there’s something to be set for kind of taking pause and maybe working for a couple of start-ups and maybe working for a bigger company, getting some really good experience, and then applying those learnings to your own start, and that could be—that’s the investing piece, and you know, I always thought that was kind of appropriate advice.
JASON: Is that the one that fits your best advices you’ve ever received? Would that cover that question?
KRIS: Yeah, I think that’s—I think—if you think of—One think I’ve found is, you know, I remember the day that I actually started at WebEx, and I remember thinking on that day. “I’m gonna be here for three years,” and on the day that I started I remember knowing that I was going to leave within three years, and I actually left, it was over three years, but under four, and so, I was really thoughtful I think around, you know, what was I expecting to get out of that experience, and actually, you know, during the experience, I think it was kind of hard seeing all the dots connecting, but in hint sight, now, you know, I’ve been out of there for five, six years something like that, seven years maybe, I’m usually thankful to that experience because it’s given us such an advantage on how we build this company. So I think it’s kind of investing versus cashing out, but maybe not all the dots are as obvious during the experience. I don’t know if that makes sense.
JASON: It completely does make sense, and I can relate to it as well myself, but you said you do a lot of mentoring and you mention some advices that you give to young founders and potential entrepreneurs, is there any advice that you can share with us that you think is important for, not only in the tech base, but also in the entrepreneur side of the business that you think of?
KRIS: I am sure there’s lots of advice, and most of the advice would be kind of contextual around the circumstance maybe but, you know, I think a big one is B-to-B software, you know, there’s like consumer software, then enterprise, and kind of baby software companies, and you know, I’m not a consumer guy, I’m a B-to-B software guy. I work in 7 start-ups. I had a great run at WebEx, and you know, the biggest advice there would be sell or die. If you can’t sell your software, then, you know, is not—you know—I think people are focused on lots of other things when they’re starting a software company like selling—getting investors on board, and you’re receiving investment, and or you spend, you know, I spoke with a guy yesterday who spent two years working on his product with no customers, and you know, that doesn’t mean you can’t invest on the product side, but the key thing is sell or die, and it’s all about customers and delivering a solution that customers want, and if they’re willing to pay for in a delivering value and creating value, so I think on B-to-B, if you’re not out there, if you’re a founder and you’re not spending 50% or more of your time actually talking to customers, to get them to sign out for a paid service, then I think that’s kind of a missed opportunity.
JASON: Yes. That’s some wise words. I’m going to get a little bit deeper now just before we finish off. It’s a question that I enjoy getting a response of, what do you believe is the meaning of life? Is a key chain question but What is the purpose of everything that we’re doing down here?
KRIS: I’m not prepared for the question. But, you know, I think, you know, I guess it depends on how deep we’re going to go this morning here. I would actually, I would probably take you with two answers. One is there is no meaning. Okay, so. We just are, and if you try to explain it any further, I think it’s probably kind of, you know, it’s difficult, but I think, you know, the more, you know, my other kind of answer would be, you know, I think, you know, enjoying and creating happiness, and you know, being happy—Interesting thing about happiness, so, you know, I’ve done some research on this, and it turns up that for the people that are—that are most happy, it doesn’t come down to, you know, their—how much money they have, or you know, all these different things. It comes down to were they successful in setting stretched goals for themselves, that they were then able to achieve, and then the other part is they have to, at the moment they achieve it, they have to take pause to actually recognize that they did that, and so if you consistently can do that through your life and that could be personal or professional, you know all the other different things, you know, that’s the key, is setting goals, they have to be stretched goals, do everything possible to get there, and pausing to acknowledge that, that’s the key to happiness which, then therefore, it’s the key to the meaning of life.
JASON: Beautifully said. Are there any books that you’ve read that you’d like to recommend?
KRIS: Just a couple of books that I like, “Influence the Psychology of Persuasion.” It’s a great book. There’s a great sales book, which I recommend starter founders called “Solution sellers, creating buyers in difficult times,” and if you read that book you’ll be much successful than non-reading it, and those are two to start with, I guess.
JASON: Okay. Is there, you’ve obviously been interviewed a lot, you do a lot of speaking is there a question that should have been asked that hasn’t been asked?
KRIS: No, it’s good. It’s a deep interview.
JASON: I’ve got one last question, which I ask everybody. Who do you think I should interview next, and what do you think I should ask them?
KRIS: A really interesting person is Shyam Sankar, and Shyam, he just a ten–ten recently, he—he runs a really large piece of a company called Palantir. Palantir is very progressive, next generation company focused on intelligence and analytics and terrorism, and fraud—financial fraud, and looking at all—how technology can solve major war problems, and so Shyam is a very interesting guy.
JASON: Right. Thank you.

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